[Toska]

I have been interested in breeding tiels for a long time now but I have only recently been getting into the nitty gritty of genetics and I am currently compiling all the info I can on the subject. Something I have been having trouble finding though it what colour mutations should NOT be bred together.
For example I know that breeding lutino to lutino can result in bald spots behind the crests of the offspring and it is far safer to breed a split lutino cock to a lutino hen. I have also read somewhere the breeding white face to white face can result in smaller than average chicks.
Are there other mutations that should not be bred together because of genetic faults like those above??

 

[srtiels]

Cinnamon is a color that you do not want to breed with some of the other mutations, such as Emerald, Recessive Silver, Dominant Silver, and Fallow. Cinnamon is a diluting color and affects the visual plumage of these mutations. For example if cinnamon is bred into the Fallow, what hapens is any visual fallows will look like lutinos.

You also do not want to pair up two of the same color mutations together...such as pied to pied, pearl to pearl, etc. it is best to pair a visual with a split.

You would want to avoid breeding pearl into mutations such as lutino, Emerald, Dominant Silver, Recessive Silver, and Fallow because pearl when combinined with these mutations tends to contibute to thinner feathering to behind the crest, and can enhance baldness in lines that the baldness has been worked out.

 

[srtiels]

Also, when breeding there are other things to consider, such as confirmation (topline). You would like to breed for a bird that has a good topline (illus. below)...meaning when veiwed from the side the profile looks like a straight line from the back of the head to the tip of the tail. You want wing tips that just touch together. You do not want to see wingtips that are misaligned with 1 wing held higher than the other, or crossed. You do not want to see a hinged tail...which is just a term where the tail bends down at the rump, breaking up the straight look to the topline.

You would like to breed for good quality to the tailfeathers, such as working with birds that have long flexible tails that don't break or fray as they climb up the side of the cage.

Temperment is another inherited trait, so working with birds that have a laid back, mellow and friendly disposition is a plus.

So there are alot of things to consider, aside from color.

 

[srtiels]

Also, when breeding the goal should be to improve the next generation.

 

[srtiels]

Great information! I have always been somewhat confused about the confirmation.

Can't you also not breed a yellow cheek to a WF? Is that just SLYC or DYC or both?
Can you breed a DYC with no whiteface in the background to a bird that is split to whiteface or can that still contribute to the orange wash?

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Cheryl...thanks! Great points.

Yes...it is best to make sure there is NO WF in the background of any DYC or SLYC, because it alters the cheek patch making it irregular in shape, smaller, and allows the orange wash to bleed thru. The BEST pairing with any YC is to pair it with a normal orange cheek patched bird that has large and deep orange colored cheek patches.

Since DYC is a dominant mutation any offspring that do not have a visible YC can NOT be split to SLYC. In otherwords what you see is what you get.

On the other hand, with SLYC, if just the hen is SLYC, only the sons will inherit the split. If only the father is SLYC the daughter will be visual SLYC and the sons will be split to SLYC.

Pastelface (PF) is interesting to work with. If you only have 1 PF and no WF to pair it with, then pair it with a nice normal with large orange cheek patches. ALL the offspring will be split to PF. Then they can be paired with visual WF. But if you do have a PF and a WF paired up, you can tell what the chicks are in the nest. Anything with light yellow down is PF and white down is WF.

NOTE: You also do not want to mix the cheek patch mutations together (SLYC, DYC, PF) because it makes it harder to identify what the mutation is in future generations. The only way to confirm what mutation the cheek patched bird is is by test breeding.

 

[srtiels]

Cheryl...I have to look for saved photos of a Receesive Silver SFDS...they are pretty. But health wise this combination would not have caused a higher mortality. About 10 years ago there were several breeders working with them. It is an iffy subject on breeding these mutations together. 10 years ago alot of the rare color mutations were being bought and shipped to China. The more exotic the mutation combinations the better the buyers wanted it. In the US the serious breeders do not want any other mutations mixed with the DS. For example during the craze for getting as many mutations into a bird DFDS was paired with Emeralds. Unfortunitely since EM have similar traits to DS there were unethical breeders that sold SFDS as EM for the higher $$ overseas.

And today a breeder really has to know the distinctive traits of each of the rare mutations because a normal SFDS, after 1-2 molts will look exactly like an EM.

And as you pointed out you do not want to pair the SLYC or DYC together, or even mix PF with these mutations. An inexperienced breeder is going to think they have one mutation when in reality it is something else, and that is how the genetic pool gets screwed up, and just makes a mess for the next person to figure out, and work backwards to the true mutation.

I have a WF bird that might be split to RS and I'm looking at a PF DS cockatiel..would that be a bad idea? Im not sure if she is even split to it and I'm pretty sure the other bird isn't.

First you have to decide what your goal is for the mutations you want. Since only one bird is split to RS, then only 50% of the chicks will inherit the split. The split can be seen when they mature...the iris of the eye will lighten up to a lighter brown, and the pupil will reflect back wine colored. Is your DS a DF or a DF? If a DF then all the chicks will be SF. If a SF, then some of the chicks will be SF...BUT it will be hard to tell which because many times a SF can appear to be a normal, especially the females, so you would have to wait for the first molt to be sure if SF or normal.

 

[Kiwigal67]

Just adding a query to this thread - does this mean I cannot bread a cinnamon pearl male to a pearl female?

 

[srtiels]

Your pairing would still be a pearl to pearl. You would prefer to breed a male split to pearl to a visual pearl. Same mutations (like 2 pearls) tend to not be an improvemnet for the next generation and you can go backwards in size, and also get a thining to the feathering behind the crest in successive generations. And offspring of such pairings with mutations that are prone to baldness will increase the balding in the next generation.

To clarify the above. IF you know the mutation background of your pair that helps. For example if each of the birds parents were also visual pearl, then I would be reluctant to breed visual to visual. But, if one or both parent came from a split to visual pairing then it is fine to pair them together.

You will know if the pairing works or not. If a good pairing the babies, when weaned will be a slight improvement in size from their parents, and show no obvious faults. If the babies are smaller, show some faults, or there was loses in the nestbox, I would suggest that this pair might do better if they are split up and repaired with splits to the mutation.

 

[srtiels]

I noticed in reading it that down near the bottom I have PF listed as a dominant mutation. I need to correct that. PF is only dominant to WF. You do not get splits when paired with WF. BUT, if it is paired with a normal orange cheek patch bird all the offspring will be split to PF. The only reason I have found to pair a PF with a normal cheek patch bird is to improve future generations of PF cheek patches. If you pair a PF with a normal that has HUGE, round deep orange patches, you are creating splits that carry the larger and lighter round cheek patch which would show up in the next generation when paired with a WF.

 

[srtiels]

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Here is something else I learned over the years. In order to increase the whiteness to a brilliant white in WF pieds....first start with ANY normal pied or any orange cheeked back bird that has a very bright deep yellow and pair with a WF Pied to produce offspring split to WF. What happens is the deeper the yellow in the normal the brighter and cleaner looking the white is in WF. If the yellow in the normal is dull and washed out looking, this carries over to WF as a dull not as true of a white color.

 

[srtiels]

mpayjr...Can you post a good side view and back veiw of the birds in question as to the way they hold their wings?

You want to breed for profiles similar to the pix's below.

 

[Dreamcatchers]

Without overstepping my bounds, I believe what srtiels was saying is -

Breeding a WF visual lutino to a WF visual lutino is a bad pairing because you have both WF AND Lutino visually expressed in both birds. Therefore you have 2x like to like.

Breeding a WF Lutino to a WF anything is still not the best pairing because you have two visual WF.

Normal Lutino to a visual WF or WF lutino to a normal split WF is not an issue and can strengthen the color intensity.

Breeding any lutino to a pied can help improve crest and structure. Just keep in mind that if the lutino is visual WF so the other should be split to WF or have no WF.

Breeding visual WF Lutino to a normal SPLIT WF and Lutino - is also fine.