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Discussion Starter #1
I know that Willow is a WF cinnamon pearl and a few knowledgeable people on the forum said she is pied too. I am not doubting it is true, but was wondering if someone can tell me what makes her pied? She is 16 weeks old.

Also, both her breeder and the vet commented on her blue eyes. They both said when the light shines on them they are blue. The vet was quite surprised. I tried to get a picture of this (and to see it myself lol) but I don't want to hurt her eyes. Is this a normal eye color for her mutation? Is there a particular type of light I should use to try to see it/take a picture? Thanks!

Let me know if any more pictures are needed.

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I went back and looked at this thread, http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=26801, and I can see that willow has white flights so yes she is a WF cinnamon pearl pied:)

The blue eyes could be because of the pied gene but Im not 100% sure. My whiteface cinnamon has brown eyes( he is split to pied).

She is super gorgeous though! One of my favourite mutations is WF cinnamon pearl :D
 

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Pied means that the bird has white or yellow feathers in places that would normally be grey. Willow has this in several different locations (for example her rump in the top picture) so she's definitely pied.

If the number of white/yellow feathers is very small this is a sign that the bird is split pied not full pied, especially if the feathers are on the back of the head. But Willow has lots of white feathers and is definitely full pied.
 

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Sarah, and Carolyn, I have to disagree, I may be wrong, but I did not see an solid white flight feathers that show full pied. The white on her neck, and just above her tail feathers shows split pied to me. The blue eyes are a sign of pied according to past threads Susanne has posted. It doesn't help that the pictures with her wings and tail spread are kinda fuzzy, and my monitor is small. Please forgive me if I missed something.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
She does have a lot of white feathers mixed in. I will take a better look at her wings, I know none of her tail feathers are white. Yeah, the pictures are bad phone pics and I know they are blurry and the spread wings are not facing the camera lol! I will look at them and try to get better pics! But it sounds like with the white feathers and blue eyes she is pied! Thanks everyone!
 

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But Willow has lots of white feathers and is definitely full pied.
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She is a pied when she has at least 1 solid/clear wing flight or tail feather, which Willow has several clear (white) wing flights. If she did not have these, regardless of the amount of clear patches on the body she would then be a split to pied.

In order to get good eye shots the bird must be sitting where the sun is shinning on the eye, then the pix is taken with no flash.
 

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There is actually no universal agreement on the definition of visual pied, and some people will call a bird pied if it has a single light-colored feather (what most people would call a pied tickmark). There is also some suspicion that there might be two different kinds of pied genes: a weak dominant type that causes tickmarks, and a stronger recessive type that causes more extensive pied coloration. So there is room for disagreement on whether a specific bird is pied or not.

Most people use this definition: if a bird has one pied gene it is split, and if it has two pied genes it is visual. The requirement to have at least one clear flight or tailfeather seems to be unique to this board, because I haven't seen it elsewhere. But it's generally a pretty good definition, since having two pied genes usually results in clear flights/tailfeathers and having one pied gene usually doesn't.

But I'm not convinced that this particular bird has only one pied gene. There's a large white area on the rump, and the head is all white with white feathers spilling down onto the shoulders and chest. If these are tickmarks, they're exceptionally big ones.
 

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And most people have not had hands on training and extensive breeding experience working with several hundred birds/pairs and learning that if there was not at least one clear flight or tail feather that the bird is a split.

I had experienced and expert breeders, and even show breeder sell me birds when I first began breeding, claiming they were pieds because of clear feathers on the body and tick marks on the head to learn by breeding that they were not. I tried every pairing, with these type of 'so called light pied' and when paired with a visual pied, and you get normals in the nest or non pied offspring they are only split birds. And when I have repeatedly had the same results then I learn by seeing what is truly a split and what a bird needs to be the full mutation.

The requirement to have at least one clear flight or tailfeather seems to be unique to this board, because I haven't seen it elsewhere.
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Yep, and I feel more than qualified to make those statements!

And I had responded to your comment on DYC, again the same argument, from numerous pairing and working with several generations because when I first started with the DYC I also heard the misinformation as to SF and DF. When I realized that the ones saying this in regards to SF and DF DYC, I thought, Geez...they never worked with the mutation extensively, and they are the same people that endorse mixing WF with the YC which has ruined the beautiful clear yellow patches, and takes working backwards several generations to get the WF back out.

AND...people read the above and just parrot these misconceptions and erronous info.
 

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There's no doubt about it, I lack experience with mutation breeding! But at the same time I'm very careful about saying "always" and "never" because it's hard to prove things like that.

I enjoy theoretical discussions so I'm going to run with an example using made-up numbers and focusing on the number of pied genes. Homozygous and heterozygous are the correct terms but they're cumbersome, so I'm going to use G2, G1 and G0 for birds with 2, 1, and 0 pied genes respectively. And CFTF for clear flights and tail feathers.

Let's assume that 1 in 1,000 G2 birds will not have any CFTF and 1 in 1,000 G1 birds will have at least one CFTF. Unusual, but not super rare. If you breed 10,000 babies where ALL the parents are G2, you'd expect to have about 10 G2 babies with no CFTF. Of course you'd have to wonder whether this just happens sometimes with G2 birds, or if a spontaneous mutation made one of the baby's pied genes "switch off". But you could test breed the baby with a G2 later on and maybe get some answers.

Now suppose that you produce 10,000 babies where every pair of parents had one G2 bird and one G1 bird. You'd expect to get about 5 G2 babies with no CFTF and 5 G1 babies with some CFTF. But you wouldn't know that these babies were special, since you expect half your babies to have CFTF and half to not have it anyway. They would all be borderline cases, with too much pied to look like a split and not enough to seriously look like visual pied. If you eventually bred them with a G2 bird you might be surprised at the babies you got, but the odds of accidentally using one of these special birds as a breeder are probably pretty low.

If you bred 10,000 babies where each pair of parents consisted of a G2 and a G0, you'd expect about 10 G1 babies with CFTF. The issues are similar to the all-G2 example.

Now suppose that you don't breed pieds on that big of a scale and your pairs aren't that uniform. You might not ever get one of these special babies at all. Even if you did you might not realize it, or might not guess the real reason for it.

Now let's raise the occurrence rate to 1 in 10,000, or 1 in 50,000. What are the odds of anybody noticing what's happening?

Have your eyes crossed yet? :p It might be true that G2 birds always have CFTF and G1 birds never do. But it's really hard to prove that there isn't an exception every now and then because it takes such high numbers for the trend to be noticeable. The principle might even apply to some of the other mysteries that you've had in your flock.
 

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Homozygous and heterozygous are the correct terms but they're cumbersome, so I'm going to use G2, G1 and G0 for birds with 2, 1, and 0 pied genes respectively. And CFTF for clear flights and tail feathers.
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Sorry you lost me, and when I don't understand something I don't bother to read it. The info above was as clear as mud :(

All I know is from personal experience that if the bird does not have at least 1 clear flight or tailfeather when paired with a visual there was always some normals in the nest, showing that the pied was a split to pied.

One thing I did learn was that those very light pieds that had symetrical flight feathers on each wing were the ones that later evolved into my clear pied lines. And those pieds were also what helped average marked pieds into heavy symetrical pieds.

During my breeding years I produced over 10,000 babies and about 40% of them were pieds, so there was enough repetition of light pieds (as little a one clear feather) and splits to prove the validity within my own flock as to what was a pied or a split.
 

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Sorry, I get carried away with stuff like this sometimes. I never said I was normal. :lol:

I was trying to say that if this only happens once in a great while it could easily slip under the radar, because you'd need a really large number of observations in order to detect the trend. If you had a pair where babies were expected to absolutely have or absolutely not have clear flights/tails, you would notice it if something odd happened. But since it's a rare event, this might never happen to you or you might rationalize it away somehow if it did happen, for example "the hen must have been with a male who wasn't her mate".

Not all breeders talk to each other and not all breeders know what results they're supposed to get. There could be a home breeder somewhere who doesn't even know the mutation names, with a pair cranking out babies that are "wrong" according to the parents' flight feathers. There could be a more knowledgeable breeder wondering why they aren't getting the expected results but not talking to anybody about it. If it doesn't happen to the right people in an attention-getting way, they won't know it's happening.

If it happened with a pair that could produce either split or visual babies, you would never know that there was anything special about a baby that had a clear flight and and only one pied gene, because you'd assume that it had two pied genes. And vice versa.

Pied is a random pattern, so I don't see why it couldn't miss the long feathers once in a while. Tickmarks show up in odd places, and if they can appear on the rump or belly I don't see why they couldn't hit a long feather every now and then. Clear flights and tails usually go along with a fair amount of clear feathers elsewhere on the body, so you'd expect anomalies to mostly be on "borderline" birds, who have either unusually large tickmarks or unusually small pied markings.
 

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not have clear flights/tails, you would notice it if something odd happened.
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Clear is simply another term for a pied feather which is a feather that does not have any melanin on it (aka: clear of melanin)

Pied is a random pattern, so I don't see why it couldn't miss the long feathers once in a while.

The randomness is on the body only which it is why it is also impossible to breed 2 pieds that are marked exactly alike. Symmetric markings is breedable (sp) and repeatable in only regards to the flight feathers.

My preference in breeding since day one when I got beyond normal greys was to breed and hold back nice splits in all the mutations. Most visual pieds were sold off and I would keep the split clutchmates from my nicest pairs, especially if there was a symmetrical pattern on the visuals. I also learned that it was the hens that passed symmetricL patterns better than the males. Thus a either centrally located clear feather on the tail or symmetrical placed (1-2) flight feathers was a true gem when working with pieds.

The other reason why I preferred working with splits is because the heavy the pied pattern and when paired with another visual pied, size and quality went backwards. Whereas working with split to split each visual generation was a noticeable improvement over the last.

The pieds are the most interesting of all the mutations to work with.

I have to find some very old pix....but I had one hen that was both beautiful and unusual. Her entire body was pied, but her wings and tail feathers were normal. I thought I had something unique and tried to reproduce it by breeding for more similar visuals and splits to pass along the pattern. She proved to be a split because there were no clear flights or tail feathers. And I worked with her offspring for 3 generations and never another one like her. She was the perfect example of the random non-repeatable markings.
 

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Some of the pied variations make me say "huh?" There was one on the forum not too long ago where a hen had a tickmark on the back of the head and one clear flight feather, and no other clear feathers if I remember right. I'd post a link but there are so many "what mutation" threads that it's not easy to find.
 
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